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Isn't this covered under Section 195 for startup expenditures? That's what I've used in the past when filling out the 4562 for similar costs.

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Ethan Davis

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Section 195 only applies to startup costs before you're actively in business. For established partnerships dealing with loan costs for property acquisition, Section 163 is generally more appropriate since these are considered business interest expenses.

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Based on the discussion here, it sounds like Section 163 is the right approach for your loan acquisition costs. I went through something similar last year with our partnership's commercial property financing. One thing to double-check though - make sure you're distinguishing between different types of loan costs. Some costs like appraisal fees or environmental assessments might need to be capitalized into the property basis rather than amortized separately. The true financing costs (origination fees, points, etc.) are what go on the 4562 under Section 163. Also, just as a heads up, if any of those loan costs were paid by the seller on your behalf, those typically get added to your property basis instead of being amortized as financing costs. The IRS can be pretty specific about how these different costs are treated, so it's worth reviewing exactly what's included in your total. Good luck with the filing! The 4562 can be tricky but once you get the right code section it's much more straightforward.

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This is really helpful clarification! I hadn't thought about the distinction between different types of loan costs. In our case, we have origination fees, points, and some legal fees that were directly related to securing the financing. But we also had an appraisal and environmental assessment that you mentioned. So just to make sure I understand - the origination fees and points would go on Form 4562 under Section 163 and be amortized over the loan term, but the appraisal and environmental costs would be added to the property's basis instead? That makes sense from an accounting perspective since those costs are more about the property itself rather than the financing. Thanks for pointing that out - I was planning to lump everything together which could have been a mistake!

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Demi Hall

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Slightly off topic but related - I have 2 rental properties and use a property management company. Do the hours the property management company spends count toward the 250 hour requirement for the safe harbor? Or only hours I personally spend?

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Rita Jacobs

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For the 250+ hour safe harbor, you can count hours spent by you, employees, contractors, and property management companies working on your behalf. So yes, your property management company's time would count toward the 250 hours. However, you would need documentation of those hours - most property management companies don't track their time in sufficient detail to satisfy the IRS requirements for the safe harbor. You'd need contemporaneous records showing dates, hours, and descriptions of all services performed.

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Micah Trail

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I'm dealing with a similar situation with my rental property and wanted to share what I learned after researching this extensively. The key issue is that regular rental income from a single-family home typically does NOT qualify as QBI unless specific conditions are met. Based on my research and conversations with multiple tax professionals, here are the main ways rental income can qualify for QBI: 1. **Real Estate Professional Status** - You need to spend 750+ hours annually in real estate activities and more than half your working time in real estate trades/businesses. 2. **Safe Harbor Rule (Rev. Proc. 2019-38)** - You must spend 250+ hours annually on rental services, maintain separate books for each property, and keep detailed contemporaneous records. 3. **Self-Rental Exception** - When you rent to a business you materially participate in. 4. **Triple Net Lease Exception** - For certain commercial lease arrangements. Since you mentioned spending less than 50 hours annually on your property, none of these exceptions would apply to your situation. Your accountant may be applying outdated guidance or misunderstanding the current rules. I'd strongly recommend getting the specific tax code section your accountant is relying on. The QBI deduction is heavily scrutinized by the IRS, so you want to make sure any position taken has solid legal backing.

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Amara Torres

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This is exactly the kind of comprehensive breakdown I was looking for! Thank you for laying out all the specific exceptions so clearly. It really helps to see them all in one place. Given that I'm nowhere near meeting any of these requirements (especially the 250+ hour safe harbor), I'm now confident that my rental income shouldn't qualify for QBI. I'm definitely going to ask my accountant which specific provision he thinks applies to my situation. Has anyone here had experience with the IRS challenging QBI deductions on rental properties? I'm wondering how aggressive they are about auditing these claims, especially if the position doesn't have solid backing.

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Yuki Sato

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whatever you do, DO NOT just ignore this!!! i did that one year thinking "oh ill deal with it later" and the penalties just kept adding up. ended up owing almost double by the time i finally dealt with it. the irs doesn't play around with this stuff.

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Carmen Ruiz

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Same! I ignored a $600 tax bill and two years later it was over $1000 with all the penalties and interest. Learned my lesson the hard way.

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Thank you for the warning! I'm definitely planning to take care of this right away. I've been checking out the IRS website today to figure out the best way to pay. Just needed to know where to look for my current balance. I definitely don't want to let this keep growing with penalties!

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Zainab Yusuf

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Just wanted to add that if you're having trouble accessing your online account on IRS.gov (sometimes the identity verification process can be tricky), you can also call the automated phone line at 1-800-829-1040. It's available 24/7 and you can get your current balance by entering your SSN and some basic info - no waiting on hold for a human agent. Also, since you mentioned this is your first time owing taxes, make sure to consider making estimated quarterly payments for next year if your withholding situation hasn't changed. This will help you avoid being in the same spot again. The IRS has worksheets and calculators on their website to help figure out how much to pay each quarter. Good luck getting it sorted out! The important thing is you're taking action now rather than letting it sit.

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Cynthia Love

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This is really helpful advice! I didn't know about the automated phone line - that sounds way easier than trying to set up an online account right now when I just need to check my balance quickly. And you're absolutely right about the quarterly payments. I had no idea I was supposed to do that with my new job. I'll definitely look into those worksheets once I get this current mess sorted out. Thanks for taking the time to explain all this!

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Renting apartment below fair market value - Is it considered a rental property for tax purposes?

So I've got this apartment outside the US that I rented to a friend for all of 2023 at below fair market value. When doing my taxes in TurboTax, I selected "Rental Properties and Royalties (Sch E)" option. During the interview process, TurboTax asked me two specific questions: 1. Days rented at a fair rental price 2. Personal use during the year Since I'm renting it below fair market value to my friend, I put "0" for both questions. TurboTax still continued with the interview, and I entered all my expenses, total rent collected, etc. This resulted in a significant loss on paper. From what I've been reading, if a property is rented below fair market value, it's actually considered a personal property, not a rental property for tax purposes. Is this true? If so, why did TurboTax still treat it as a rental property? I'm confused about this. After some research, I realized question #2 should have been 365 days, which would make it a personal property, not a rental. But I'm still unsure about the tax implications. My friend only pays the maintenance fees as rent - nothing directly to me. I would have paid these maintenance fees anyway even if the apartment was empty. Other expenses like property taxes and insurance actually result in an overall loss. I'm not worried about claiming the loss, but someone told me I need to report the maintenance fees as income without being able to deduct any expenses (even from that income). This contradicts what a TurboTax rep told me: "When you rent below fair market price, you would be considered to be renting 'not for profit.' If your expenses (mortgage interest plus property taxes) were more than the rent you received, you are not required to report the income." I'm taking the standard deduction if that matters. Thanks for any help!

StarSailor}

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I'm confused about one thing - if the apartment is outside the US, don't you have to report it on FBAR and Form 8938 regardless of whether it's rental or personal? My accountant told me all foreign properties need to be disclosed even if they don't generate income.

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Miguel Silva

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Foreign property itself isn't reportable on FBAR or 8938 - those forms are for foreign financial accounts and assets. You'd only report the foreign bank account used to receive rental income or pay expenses. The property itself is reported on Schedule E if it's a rental or not at all if it's personal. The foreign rental income would be reported on your tax return regardless of whether it's held in a foreign account or not. But the FBAR/8938 reporting is about the accounts, not the property.

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Mei Lin

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That's actually a good point I hadn't considered. I do have a foreign bank account I use for collecting the maintenance fees and paying property expenses. I'll need to make sure I'm reporting that correctly. Thanks for bringing this up!

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This is a really complex situation that highlights how confusing tax software can be with edge cases. You're absolutely right that TurboTax should have caught this - when you entered "0" for both fair rental days and personal use days, that's mathematically impossible since the property exists somewhere for 365 days. Based on what others have explained here, it sounds like you need to go back and correct your filing. You should enter 365 days for personal use (since below-market rentals to friends/family are considered personal use), which would take you out of the Schedule E rental property track entirely. The good news is that if your maintenance fees are less than your property taxes, you likely don't need to report any income at all. But you should definitely get professional help or use one of the tools mentioned here to make sure you're handling the foreign aspects correctly - there are additional considerations for foreign properties that go beyond just the rental vs. personal determination. Don't feel bad about the confusion - this is one of those areas where the tax code is genuinely unclear and even tax professionals sometimes get it wrong!

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This is such a helpful summary of everything discussed here! I'm definitely going to need to amend my return. One question though - when I go back to correct this in TurboTax, should I completely start over with the rental property section, or is there a way to edit it to change from 0/0 days to 365 personal use days? I'm worried about messing up other parts of my return if I have to delete and restart that whole section. Also, does anyone know if there are penalties for having filed this incorrectly initially? I'm not trying to avoid taxes - I actually reported a loss that I apparently shouldn't have been able to claim anyway. Just want to make sure I handle the correction properly.

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Jean Claude

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I'm going through this exact same situation right now - just did my ID verification last week and got the same 9-week timeline. Reading through everyone's experiences here is both reassuring and nerve-wracking! It sounds like there's a pretty wide range of actual wait times. I'm going to try setting up that IRS account to check my transcript like others mentioned, and maybe look into that taxr.ai thing since trying to decode all those IRS codes myself sounds like a nightmare. Thanks to everyone sharing their experiences - it really helps to know I'm not alone in this frustrating process!

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Sasha Ivanov

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Welcome to the waiting game club! šŸ˜… I just went through this whole process a few months back and I know exactly how you're feeling. The uncertainty is honestly the worst part. Based on what I've seen here and my own experience, it really does seem to vary wildly - some people get lucky with 4-6 weeks while others wait the full 9+ weeks. Setting up that IRS account is definitely worth it, though fair warning their website can be finicky. If you do try taxr.ai like others mentioned, I'd be curious to hear how it works out since I'm always looking for better ways to make sense of IRS communication. One thing that helped me was trying not to check daily since it just made the anxiety worse. Hang in there - at least you've cleared the biggest hurdle with the in-person verification!

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Miguel Diaz

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I just went through ID verification myself about 2 months ago and can share my experience. They told me the same 9-week timeline, but I actually got my refund in 7 weeks. What really helped was checking my transcript weekly (not daily - that just drove me crazy) and watching for specific codes. The key ones to look for are: 971 code (which shows they received your ID verification), then eventually the 846 code (refund issued). My transcript didn't move for like 4 weeks straight after verification, then suddenly everything updated at once. The waiting is absolutely brutal when you're counting on that money, but from what I've seen most people do get it within that 9-week window or sooner. One tip: if you haven't already, make sure your direct deposit info is correct - that'll save you an extra week or two versus waiting for a paper check. Hang in there!

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Kayla Morgan

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Thanks for sharing your timeline Miguel! That's really helpful to know about the specific codes to watch for. I'm pretty new to all this tax stuff and didn't even know about transcripts until reading this thread. The 971 and 846 codes you mentioned - do those show up in a specific order or can they appear at the same time? Also wondering if the "transcript didn't move for 4 weeks" thing is normal or if that usually means there's an issue. I'm trying to set realistic expectations for myself since I'm definitely one of those people who would obsessively check daily if I'm not careful!

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