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One aspect that hasn't been fully addressed yet is the importance of getting an accurate valuation of the IRA as of your mother's date of death. This "date of death value" becomes crucial for several reasons: 1. It establishes the basis for calculating any gains or losses on investments within the IRA between the date of death and when you actually liquidate it. 2. For Form 1041 purposes, you'll need this value to properly report the income when distributions occur. 3. It may also be needed for any state estate/inheritance tax calculations. Make sure you get official statements from the IRA custodian showing the exact value as of the date of death. If there were market fluctuations between her passing and when you're planning to distribute, you'll want to understand how that affects the tax calculations. Also, regarding your question about strategies to minimize tax impact - consider whether either you or your brother might have any tax losses from other investments that could be used to offset some of the IRA income. Sometimes families can coordinate their overall tax planning to optimize the situation when large inherited distributions are involved. The coordination between federal Form 1041, state requirements (especially Pennsylvania's inheritance tax as mentioned earlier), and your personal tax situations is complex enough that having a tax professional who specializes in estate taxation review your strategy before you make the distributions would likely save you money in the long run.

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StarStrider

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This is excellent advice about getting the proper date of death valuation! I just went through this process with my father's estate last year, and the IRA custodian (Fidelity in our case) was actually very helpful in providing the official date of death statements we needed. One thing to add - if there were any dividends or interest earned in the IRA between the date of death and when you liquidate it, that income is also taxable to the estate. The custodian should be able to provide a breakdown showing the original date of death value versus any post-death earnings. Regarding tax loss coordination, that's a really smart strategy. In our situation, my sister had some capital losses from stock sales that helped offset part of the IRA distribution income on her personal return. It's definitely worth reviewing both your and your brother's overall tax situations before deciding how to split the distributions. Also, since you mentioned Pennsylvania earlier - make sure you understand how PA treats the IRA income for inheritance tax purposes versus income tax purposes. They can be calculated differently, and the timing of when you take distributions can affect both calculations. The custodian should also be able to help you understand any investment options for keeping the money in the IRA temporarily if you decide to spread distributions across multiple years, rather than immediately liquidating everything to cash.

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Sophia Russo

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I'm going through a very similar situation with my father's estate right now, and I wanted to share a few additional considerations that might help you navigate this complex process. First, regarding the timing of IRA distributions - you mentioned planning to liquidate everything into the estate checking account, but you might want to explore keeping some funds in the IRA temporarily if the custodian allows it. Some custodians will let you maintain the account under the estate's name while you decide on distribution timing, which can give you more flexibility for tax planning. Second, don't forget about the potential for estimated tax payments. With a $450k IRA distribution, the estate (and eventually you and your brother) may need to make quarterly estimated payments to avoid underpayment penalties. The estate will likely owe substantial income tax even if you plan to distribute the income to beneficiaries in the same year. Third, consider the impact on your state income taxes as well. Depending on where you live, the additional income from your share of the IRA distribution could push you into higher state tax brackets or trigger additional state taxes you might not normally pay. Finally, make sure you understand how this affects any other tax planning you might have been doing. For example, if either you or your brother were planning Roth IRA conversions this year, the additional income from the inherited IRA might make those conversions less advantageous. The interplay between federal Form 1041, state estate/inheritance taxes, and personal income tax planning is really complex with amounts this large. Getting professional guidance upfront could save you thousands in taxes and help you avoid costly mistakes.

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StardustSeeker

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This is incredibly helpful guidance! I'm actually in a similar situation with my aunt's estate and hadn't considered the estimated tax payment issue at all. You're absolutely right that a $450k distribution could trigger significant quarterly payment requirements. One question about keeping funds in the IRA temporarily - did your custodian require any special documentation to maintain the account under the estate's name? I'm working with Vanguard and they've been pushing us to distribute everything quickly, but it sounds like there might be more flexibility than they initially indicated. Also, your point about Roth conversion planning is really insightful. My brother was actually planning to do a substantial Roth conversion this year, but with his share of the IRA distribution ($225k), that would definitely push him into the highest tax brackets and make the conversion much less attractive. Do you know if there's a way to structure the estate distributions so that one beneficiary receives more of the IRA income in a particular year if they're in a lower tax bracket? Or does everything have to be split equally based on the estate documents? The complexity of coordinating all these different tax implications is honestly overwhelming, but comments like yours are helping me understand what questions I need to ask when I consult with a tax professional.

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Emma Wilson

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Clay, I went through something very similar when I relocated my consulting business from Texas to Arizona in 2019. The IRS absolutely counts depreciation when determining profit/loss for the hobby rule, so that $14k in equipment depreciation will factor into your loss calculation. Since you're essentially in year 3 with losses, you need to be extra careful about documentation. The fact that you took a year off in 2023 might actually help your case - it shows you made a business decision to pause operations due to circumstances (partner's illness), rather than just continuing to rack up losses. For your restart in Colorado, I'd recommend: 1) Get a new EIN and business license to clearly document the "fresh start" 2) Create a detailed business plan showing path to profitability within 2 years 3) Keep meticulous records of all business activities and expenses 4) Consider quarterly estimated tax payments once profitable to show legitimate business intent The key is proving this isn't just a tax shelter hobby. Document everything - market research, business meetings, networking events, professional development. The IRS looks at the totality of circumstances, not just the profit timeline.

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Jenna Sloan

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Emma, this is incredibly helpful advice! The point about getting a new EIN to document the fresh start is brilliant - I hadn't thought of that. Quick question though: when you say "quarterly estimated tax payments once profitable," do you mean I should start making payments even if I'm not required to based on my current income level? Would voluntary payments help demonstrate business intent to the IRS? Also, did relocating to a different state create any complications with your business records or tax filings? I'm wondering if I need to be extra careful about maintaining continuity in my documentation across state lines.

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Savannah Glover

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@Emma Wilson Great points about documentation! I m'definitely going to look into getting a new EIN for the Colorado restart. One follow-up question - when you relocated to Arizona, did you have to worry about establishing nexus in the new state for business purposes? I m'wondering if I need to be concerned about Colorado state tax implications on top of the federal hobby loss issues. Also, regarding the business plan showing profitability within 2 years - do you have any recommendations for what level of detail the IRS expects? Should this be a formal document that I keep with my tax records, or is it more about having the mental framework to justify my business decisions if questioned?

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Jamal Wilson

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As someone who's dealt with similar Schedule C loss concerns, I want to emphasize that the IRS hobby loss rule is really about demonstrating genuine business intent rather than just hitting specific profit targets. The fact that you paused operations in 2023 due to your partner's illness actually works in your favor - it shows you made rational business decisions rather than blindly continuing to generate losses. A few key points for your Colorado restart: 1. **Documentation is everything** - Keep detailed records of your business activities, not just expenses. Time logs, client communications, market research, networking events all help prove business intent. 2. **The 5-year window is flexible** - Since you had legitimate business reasons for the pause, and you're essentially restarting with new equipment and location, you have a strong case that this demonstrates serious business commitment. 3. **Depreciation strategy matters** - While depreciation does count toward your loss calculation, bonus depreciation on legitimate business equipment actually supports your case for having a real business with substantial investment. 4. **Consider professional consultation** - Given that you're in year 3 with a restart, it might be worth having a tax professional review your specific situation to ensure you're positioning everything correctly for IRS scrutiny. The key is showing this is a legitimate business venture, not a tax-loss hobby. Your equipment investment and strategic restart suggest you're on the right track!

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Jacinda Yu

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Has anyone run into issues with their state's Department of Revenue on this? I'm in Washington state and purchased equipment from an individual last year. Even though federal doesn't require the W9 for asset purchases, our state DOR auditor questioned why we didn't have one during our routine audit.

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Landon Flounder

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In Texas we've never been asked for W9 documentation for vehicle or equipment purchases from individuals during state audits. They just want to see the bill of sale, title transfer, and proof we paid the appropriate sales tax. Might be a Washington state specific thing?

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Alicia Stern

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California CPA here - wanted to chime in since I see clients struggle with this exact question regularly. You absolutely do NOT need a W9 for purchasing a vehicle from an individual, even as a business purchase. The confusion often comes from the $600 threshold rule, but that applies specifically to payments for SERVICES (like hiring a contractor), not asset purchases. When you buy a truck, you're acquiring property, not paying for services rendered. Your documentation should include: bill of sale with VIN, title transfer paperwork, proof of payment (check copy/wire transfer receipt), and sales tax receipt from DMV registration. This creates a complete audit trail without needing any W9 forms. One thing to watch out for - if the seller helps with delivery, installation, or any other services beyond just selling you the truck, those service fees might require separate 1099 reporting. But for a straightforward vehicle purchase, you're all set without the W9.

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Emma Taylor

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Thank you for the clear explanation! As someone new to business purchases, this really helps clarify the distinction between asset purchases and service payments. I was getting confused by all the conflicting information online about the $600 threshold. One follow-up question - when you mention keeping the sales tax receipt from DMV registration, does that sales tax get added to the capitalized cost of the vehicle for depreciation purposes, or is it treated as a separate deductible expense?

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Gianna Scott

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This is such a valuable thread! I'm dealing with the exact same situation right now - been on F1 OPT for 8 months and my employer has been withholding about $250/month in FICA taxes despite me bringing it up multiple times. What's really frustrating is that my company's HR department keeps saying "we treat all employees the same" and doesn't seem to understand that this is actually a legal requirement, not just a preference. I've shown them my I-94 and EAD card, but they keep insisting their payroll system "doesn't have options" for tax exemptions. Reading through all these responses, it sounds like the key is really pushing back with official documentation and framing it as a compliance issue rather than just a student request. I'm definitely going to try the comprehensive packet approach that @ca96349f75f6 mentioned - seems like having everything in one official-looking package makes a huge difference. Has anyone had success with larger corporations (Fortune 500 type companies)? I'm wondering if bigger companies are more resistant to making these changes because they have more bureaucracy, or if they're actually easier to work with because they have more sophisticated payroll systems.

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Caden Nguyen

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@0d8bf0e6535e In my experience, larger corporations can actually be easier to work with once you get to the right people! The key is that they usually have dedicated tax compliance specialists who understand these regulations better than general HR staff. What I'd recommend is asking to escalate beyond your immediate HR contact to their "payroll tax compliance" or "tax operations" team. Larger companies often have these specialized roles specifically because they deal with complex tax situations like this regularly. Also, with Fortune 500 companies, mentioning potential audit risks from incorrect FICA withholding tends to get immediate attention. These companies are very sensitive to anything that could trigger IRS scrutiny or compliance issues. When you frame it as "ensuring the company is compliant with IRS regulations for non-resident alien employees," it becomes a business priority rather than just an employee request. One thing that helped me was finding out if other F1 students at my company had successfully gotten the exemption set up - if so, there's already a process in place and you just need to find the right person who knows how to implement it. Try reaching out through your company's international employee resource group if they have one!

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Kendrick Webb

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I've been following this thread closely as I'm dealing with the exact same FICA withholding issue on my F1 OPT! Just wanted to share what finally worked for me after months of back-and-forth with my employer. The breakthrough came when I stopped focusing on HR and went directly to our company's external payroll vendor (in our case, it was Paychex, not ADP). I called their customer support line and explained that my employer needed to set up a FICA exemption for a non-resident alien employee. The Paychex rep immediately knew what I was talking about and walked me through exactly which tax codes needed to be changed. They even offered to do a three-way call with my HR department to walk them through the system changes! Turns out there's literally a checkbox in their system for "NRA FICA Exempt" that my HR team had never noticed. The whole thing was resolved within one business day once we got the payroll vendor involved. I think sometimes company HR departments just don't know their own payroll systems well enough to handle these specialized situations. For anyone still struggling with this, I'd definitely recommend bypassing HR and going directly to whatever payroll service your company uses. Most of these vendors (ADP, Paychex, Gusto, etc.) have dealt with this exact situation thousands of times and can guide your employer through the process much more effectively than trying to figure it out internally.

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Elijah O'Reilly

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This is brilliant advice! I never thought about contacting the payroll vendor directly. I've been banging my head against the wall with our HR department for weeks - they keep saying "the system doesn't allow it" but it sounds like they just don't know how to use their own system properly. My company uses ADP, so I'm definitely going to try calling their support line directly and asking for help with setting up the FICA exemption. The three-way call idea is perfect because then I don't have to try to explain technical payroll stuff to HR myself - I can let the ADP expert do it. Did you have any specific information ready when you called Paychex, like your employee ID or tax forms? I want to make sure I have everything they might need to help walk my HR through the process.

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How to correctly complete Form 8621 for PFIC using mark-to-market election - need advice on calculation example

I've been researching PFICs because everyone warns how complicated reporting them on Form 8621 can be. But after reading through the requirements, I'm wondering if it's actually simpler than people make it out to be? Either I'm missing something crucial or maybe people just have more complex situations than my example. Before I spend money on expensive tax software, I wanted to work through a simple example to check my understanding. I'm looking at the Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF (VWRL) as my example. I understand this qualifies as a PFIC because over 75% of its income is from passive sources. I also believe it counts as a "marketable stock" since it trades regularly on a qualified exchange according to ยง 1.1296-2(a)(1). Here's my purchase history for 2024: April 15: 8 shares at โ‚ฌ82.15 = โ‚ฌ657.20 August 3: 15 shares at โ‚ฌ84.65 = โ‚ฌ1,269.75 November 22: 12 shares at โ‚ฌ88.32 = โ‚ฌ1,059.84 On December 31, the fair market value was โ‚ฌ91.45 per share. I believe I only need to file one Form 8621 for this PFIC, not separate forms for each purchase. If I make the mark-to-market election (line 10a on Form 8621), my understanding is: - Fair market value at year-end: 35 shares ร— โ‚ฌ91.45 = โ‚ฌ3,200.75 - My adjusted basis in the stock (line 10b): โ‚ฌ657.20 + โ‚ฌ1,269.75 + โ‚ฌ1,059.84 = โ‚ฌ2,986.79 - Unrealized gain taxed as ordinary income: โ‚ฌ3,200.75 - โ‚ฌ2,986.79 = โ‚ฌ213.96 Is this calculation correct? Am I missing anything important about reporting PFICs with mark-to-market? Thanks for any help!

Maya Lewis

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Your PFIC calculation methodology is spot-on! As someone who has wrestled with Form 8621 for multiple years, I can confirm you're taking the right approach with the mark-to-market election for VWRL. A few practical tips from my experience: **Currency conversion strategy**: I maintain a simple spreadsheet with three columns - transaction date, EUR amount, and the Treasury.gov EUR/USD rate for that specific date. This creates an audit trail that the IRS will accept. For your December 31 valuation, make sure to use the official year-end exchange rate. **Quarterly tracking helps**: Since you're planning to hold this long-term, consider noting the FMV at each quarter-end. While not required, it helps you anticipate your year-end tax liability and makes the annual calculation feel less daunting. **The beauty of your VWRL choice**: You picked an excellent fund for PFIC reporting. It trades on major exchanges with reliable pricing, has clear PFIC status, and qualifies for mark-to-market. I learned the hard way that some European funds have pricing gaps around holidays that can complicate year-end valuations. **State tax consideration**: Don't forget to check how your state treats PFIC income. Most states follow federal treatment, but it's worth confirming with your tax preparer. Your โ‚ฌ213.96 calculation looks correct assuming proper USD conversion. The mark-to-market election will save you from the nightmare of excess distribution calculations, and starting with such a clean example gives you a solid foundation for future years!

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Kai Rivera

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This is excellent practical advice, Maya! The quarterly tracking tip is especially smart - I hadn't thought about monitoring the position throughout the year to anticipate tax liability. That could really help with cash flow planning since mark-to-market gains are taxed as ordinary income. Your point about VWRL having reliable pricing is reassuring. I was worried about potential complications around European holidays or market closures, but it sounds like the major exchanges provide consistent year-end pricing data. Quick question about the state tax consideration you mentioned: I'm in Texas (no state income tax), so I assume this won't be an issue for me. But for future reference, what kinds of state-level complications have you seen with PFIC reporting? Are there states that don't follow the federal mark-to-market election or treat the income differently? Also, regarding the quarterly FMV tracking - do you just note the December 31 values for your own planning purposes, or do you actually need to report quarterly values anywhere on the tax forms? I want to make sure I'm not missing any additional reporting requirements beyond the annual Form 8621. Thanks for confirming my calculation approach - it's reassuring to hear from someone who's navigated this successfully across multiple years!

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Nia Thompson

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Your PFIC calculation approach is excellent, and I can see you've done your homework! As someone who's been through several years of PFIC reporting, let me add a few insights that might help: **Your methodology is correct**: One Form 8621 per PFIC fund, and your unrealized gain calculation of โ‚ฌ213.96 follows the proper approach. The mark-to-market election will definitely simplify your life compared to the default PFIC rules. **Record-keeping insight**: Since you're starting fresh with VWRL, create a master tracking document now that includes: purchase date, shares, EUR price, EUR/USD exchange rate, and USD basis for each transaction. This becomes your permanent record that carries forward each year. Your 2025 starting basis will be the December 31, 2024 FMV converted to USD. **Timing advantage**: You can make the mark-to-market election when you file your 2024 return (by April 15, 2025), so you have time to evaluate whether this approach makes sense for your situation. Just remember it's irrevocable without IRS consent. **Practical tip**: Set up a simple system to capture the Treasury.gov exchange rate immediately after each purchase. I learned this the hard way when trying to reconstruct historical rates months later. Screenshot or print the rate with the date visible for audit protection. **VWRL advantage**: You chose wisely - it's highly liquid, trades on qualified exchanges, and has reliable year-end pricing. Much simpler than some thinly-traded European funds that can create valuation headaches. Your calculation foundation is solid. Just stay disciplined with documentation and you'll find PFIC reporting much more manageable than the horror stories suggest!

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Zoe Papanikolaou

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This is such a helpful thread for someone just starting with PFIC reporting! Nia, your point about creating a master tracking document from the beginning is spot on. I'm actually in a similar situation to Diego with European ETF investments and have been putting off dealing with the PFIC requirements because they seemed so intimidating. Reading through this discussion, it sounds like the mark-to-market election really is the way to go for liquid ETFs like VWRL. The idea of avoiding those excess distribution calculations alone makes it worth it. One question I have - for someone who already has PFIC investments from prior years but never filed the proper forms, is it possible to make the mark-to-market election going forward, or do you need to somehow address the prior years first? I'm worried I may have created a bigger mess by not filing 8621 forms in previous years. Also, does anyone know if there are penalties for late PFIC reporting, and if so, how severe they typically are? I'm trying to decide whether to tackle this myself or just bite the bullet and pay for professional help to clean up any prior year issues.

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