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How do Roth IRA ordering rules apply to rollovers from Roth 401k or other Designated Roth accounts?

I understand the standard Roth IRA ordering rules for early withdrawals (pre-59.5) regarding contributions, earnings, and conversions. I know converted money has that 5-year holding period before penalty-free withdrawal. But I'm confused about how rollovers from Roth 401k accounts are treated since they're not technically conversions. I've been searching everywhere but can't find clear guidance on how rollovers from designated Roth accounts (like Roth 401k) work with the ordering rules. There's no conversion happening in these transactions. I saw someone mention on a forum that when you roll a Roth 401k into a Roth IRA, all the Roth 401k contributions immediately get treated as Roth IRA contributions, and all the Roth 401k earnings become Roth IRA earnings. Is this actually true? Here's a practical example to illustrate my question: If I have $27k in a Roth IRA with $13k being contributions, I could withdraw up to my contribution amount early without any penalty or tax. So taking out $15k would only result in penalties on $2k. But if I had a $270k Roth 401k with $135k in contributions and took an early withdrawal, the pro-rata rule would hit me with taxes and penalties on 50% of whatever I took out. So hypothetically, could I roll that entire $270k Roth 401k into my existing Roth IRA and then be able to withdraw up to $148k penalty-free immediately (the combined contributions from both accounts)? Would this effectively bypass the pro-rata rule without even waiting 5 years like with conversions? Seems almost too easy, which makes me suspicious. Has anyone dealt with this scenario?

Just to add another data point - I actually did exactly what you're describing about 2 years ago. I had approximately $215k in my Roth 401k (about $120k contributions) and rolled it to my existing Roth IRA which had about $35k (with $25k being contributions). After the rollover, my contribution basis was properly tracked as $145k total. I needed money for a medical emergency about 3 months later and was able to withdraw $52k without any tax consequences or penalties. The key is making sure your 401k plan administrator correctly reports the contribution portion of your rollover. My plan provided a statement breaking down the contributions vs. earnings portions, which I kept for my records. When I filed my taxes the following year, everything worked as expected - no issues.

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That's really helpful to hear a real-world example! Did you have to do anything special on your tax return to document the rollover and subsequent withdrawal? And did your 401k plan administrator automatically provide that contribution/earnings breakdown, or did you have to specifically request it?

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You'll receive a 1099-R from your 401k provider showing the total distribution, and you'll need to report the rollover on your tax return. For the withdrawal, you'll get a 1099-R from your IRA custodian the following year. I didn't need to file any special forms since my withdrawal was less than my total contributions, but I did keep detailed records of my basis. My plan administrator provided the contribution/earnings breakdown automatically as part of the distribution paperwork. If yours doesn't, definitely request it - you need this documentation to establish your basis. Some administrators have this readily available, while others might require you to specifically ask for a "distribution statement showing contribution and earnings portions.

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Ezra Beard

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One thing nobody has mentioned yet - while the ordering rules do work as everyone's described (contributions come out first), be careful about one detail: the timing! If you roll over your Roth 401k to a NEW Roth IRA (rather than one you've had for 5+ years), you might still face the 5-year rule on qualified distributions of EARNINGS. Contributions can still come out anytime, but if you're trying to access earnings within 5 years of establishing your FIRST Roth IRA, those earnings would be subject to tax/penalty even if you're over 59.5. The 5-year clock for earnings starts when you open your first Roth IRA, not when you do the rollover. This trips up a lot of people who wait until retirement to open their first Roth account.

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Wait I'm confused. So if I open my first ever Roth IRA today at age 55, then immediately roll over my Roth 401k that I've had for 20 years, I still have to wait until age 60 to access the earnings tax-free even though I'll be past 59.5?

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Ezra Beard

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That's exactly right. The 5-year rule for Roth IRA earnings requires that your first Roth IRA was established at least 5 tax years ago AND you're 59½ or meet another exception (disability, first-time home purchase, etc.). So in your example, if you open your first Roth IRA at 55 and roll over your 20-year Roth 401k, you could access all the contribution portions immediately without tax or penalty. However, for the earnings to come out tax-free, you'd need to wait until both: 1) you're 59½ (which you already are), and 2) it's been 5 tax years since you established your first Roth IRA - so that would be at age 60.

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Don't forget about Form 8843! Every international student on F1 visa MUST file this form even if you have no income. It's called "Statement for Exempt Individuals" and it's basically telling the IRS you're temporarily in the US for educational purposes. I got in trouble my second year because I didn't know about this requirement. Also, check if your country has a tax treaty with the US - it can save you a lot! I'm from Brazil and was able to exclude some of my income thanks to the treaty provisions.

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Vince Eh

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Thanks for this! I had no idea about Form 8843 being required even without income. Do you know if there's a deadline difference for that form compared to the regular tax filing deadline?

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The Form 8843 follows the same deadline as your tax return, which is generally April 15th for the previous tax year. However, if you don't have any income to report and are ONLY filing Form 8843 (no 1040-NR needed), then you actually have until June 15th to submit it. Since you mentioned having research assistant income, you'll need to file both Form 8843 and Form 1040-NR by the April 15th deadline (unless you file for an extension). Make sure you keep copies of everything you submit - international student tax records can be important for future visa applications or if you eventually apply for permanent residency.

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International student here! Quick question - has anyone tried filing BOTH federal and state taxes through the free versions of tax software? I'm in New York on F1 and need to file both, but most free services I've found only cover federal for international students.

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Melissa Lin

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Most free services don't support Form 1040-NR which international students need to file. I tried FreeTaxUSA last year and had to stop halfway when I realized it wasn't designed for nonresident aliens. Ended up using Sprintax which costs money but handles both federal and state correctly for F1 students.

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I see everyone suggesting the identity theft angle which is definitely possible, but there could be another explanation. The IRS sometimes makes major data entry errors. Last year they attached someone else's W-2 to my account by mistake - had a similar name but completely wrong SSN. Could be worth checking your Social Security statement online to see if there's any reported income from that employer there too. If it's not showing on your SS record but is on your IRS transcript, that strengthens the case that it's just an IRS error rather than actual identity theft.

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Nalani Liu

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I hadn't even thought about checking my Social Security statement! Just logged in and interestingly there's no record of that employer or the $78k on my Social Security earnings record. Does that mean it's more likely just an IRS error than actual identity theft? Should I still follow all the identity theft steps everyone mentioned or is there a faster way to resolve this?

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If it's not showing up on your Social Security earnings record, that's actually good news! It suggests it's more likely an IRS processing error rather than someone actually using your info to work somewhere. I'd still take precautions like monitoring your credit, but you might be able to resolve this more quickly by calling the IRS and specifically telling them it appears to be a processing error since the income doesn't appear on your Social Security record. Ask to speak with someone in the Wage and Income department rather than Identity Theft. In my case, they were able to remove the incorrect W-2 and release my refund within about 6 weeks of identifying the error. Still frustrating, but faster than the full identity theft resolution process!

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Anna Xian

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Make sure you also check if the company actually exists! Google the company name, look them up on your state's business registry website, etc. I had a weird W-2 show up and spent weeks on the identity theft process only to discover the company was legitimate but had transposed some digits in the SSN they reported to the IRS. The fastest resolution came when I actually contacted the company's HR department directly. They were able to correct the error on their end and submit amended forms to the IRS.

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Smart advice! But how do you approach a company you've never worked for? I'm dealing with a similar issue and worry they'll just ignore me since I'm not an employee.

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Amina Sy

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Another option nobody's mentioned is to consult a CPA or tax professional. Yes, it costs money, but they deal with amendments all the time and have access to professional tax software with all the current forms. I had a similar issue with an amendment last year and my CPA handled it all - found the right forms, calculated everything correctly, and even represented me when the IRS had questions. For something that might involve substantial money (like that $3,800 business expense OP mentioned), the peace of mind might be worth the professional fee.

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Thanks for suggesting this! Do you have any idea how much a CPA typically charges for handling a simple amendment? I'm trying to weigh if the potential refund would be worth the professional fees.

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Amina Sy

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For a relatively straightforward amendment like yours, most CPAs would charge somewhere between $200-500 depending on your location and the complexity of your overall tax situation. If your $3,800 business expense would significantly reduce your self-employment taxes (which can be 15.3% of your net earnings), you could potentially recover $500-700 or more, making the CPA fees worthwhile. Plus, they'll handle all the paperwork and respond to any IRS inquiries, which adds value beyond just the monetary return.

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Just a quick note - if your 2020 tax return was e-filed originally, you might be able to e-file the amendment now too! The IRS started allowing e-filing of Form 1040-X in 2020, but not all tax software supports it yet. I used TurboTax to amend my 2020 return last year and was able to e-file it. Made the whole process much faster - got my refund in about 8 weeks instead of the 16+ weeks it typically takes for paper amendments.

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Does anyone know if the free tax filing services like FreeTaxUSA or Credit Karma support e-filing amendments? Or is this only available in the paid versions of software?

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Last I checked, FreeTaxUSA does support preparing and e-filing 1040-X amendments, even in their free version for federal returns (though state amendments might have a fee). Credit Karma Tax (now Cash App Taxes) has been a bit behind on amendment e-filing support, but they might have added it by now. One important thing to note is that you can only e-file an amendment if your original return was also e-filed. If you filed by paper originally, you'll need to submit your amendment by paper too.

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Carmen Lopez

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Another possibility - did you get a state tax refund last year? The 1099-G is also used to report state tax refunds, which are sometimes taxable on your federal return if you itemized deductions the previous year. Check Box 2 on the form - if it shows a state tax refund instead of unemployment in Box 1, that might explain it.

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Zara Rashid

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I did get a state tax refund actually, but it was only around $340, not the $3,750 showing on the form. And I'm pretty sure it's showing in Box 1 which says "unemployment compensation" so I don't think that's it. But thanks for the suggestion, I wouldn't have thought to check that.

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Carmen Lopez

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If it's definitely showing in Box 1 as unemployment compensation, then you're right, it's not the tax refund. At this point, you need to contact the state agency directly as the others suggested. One other thing to check - look at the form carefully and make sure it's actually from your state's official unemployment agency. There have been some scams where fake 1099-Gs are sent out to trick people into providing personal information.

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Just a heads up - document EVERYTHING while you're sorting this out. Take screenshots of your bank statements showing you never received these payments. Keep a log of every call you make with date, time, and who you spoke with. If you send any documentation, send it with delivery confirmation. The IRS will match this 1099-G against your tax return, so you'll need solid proof this wasn't your income. Don't just ignore it.

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Andre Dupont

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This is really good advice. My brother had a similar issue in 2023 and the documentation was what saved him. The unemployment office initially denied there was any error until he showed them his complete employment history and bank statements. They eventually fixed it but it took nearly 3 months.

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It's unfortunately becoming a common problem. Another tip: pull your free credit report immediately to see if there's any other suspicious activity. Sometimes unemployment fraud is just one part of larger identity theft. You may want to place a fraud alert on your credit file too while sorting this out.

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