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5 Can someone explain the pro-rata rule issue with backdoor Roths? My financial advisor mentioned it could be a problem but didn't really explain it clearly.
8 The pro-rata rule is crucial to understand with backdoor Roth conversions. If you have ANY existing pre-tax money in ANY traditional IRA accounts (including SEP and SIMPLE IRAs), the IRS requires you to calculate conversions proportionally across all your IRA balances. For example, if you have $50,000 in traditional IRA assets (pre-tax) and you make a new $6,000 non-deductible IRA contribution that you want to convert via the backdoor method, you can't just convert the $6,000. The IRS considers 89% ($50,000 Γ· $56,000) of any conversion to be taxable. So if you convert $6,000, about $5,340 would be taxable income. This is why backdoor Roths work best for people who either don't have existing traditional IRA balances or who can roll their IRA funds into an employer 401(k) plan first (if the plan allows it).
This is a great question that highlights one of the most confusing aspects of retirement tax law. The income restrictions on Roth IRAs were originally designed as a revenue protection measure - Congress wanted to limit the immediate tax revenue loss from allowing high earners to contribute after-tax dollars that would grow tax-free forever. However, what many people don't realize is that the "backdoor Roth" strategy exists because of legislative oversight, not intentional design. When Congress removed income limits on Roth conversions in 2010 (primarily to generate short-term tax revenue), they didn't anticipate how this would interact with the existing rule allowing anyone to make non-deductible traditional IRA contributions. The IRS has been aware of this strategy for over a decade and has essentially given it tacit approval. In fact, they've published guidance on how to properly report these transactions. It's become such an accepted practice that many major brokerages now offer "backdoor Roth" as a standard service option. From a practical standpoint, if you're a high-income earner, this strategy remains completely legitimate and widely used. Just make sure you understand the pro-rata rule implications if you have existing traditional IRA balances, and document everything properly for tax reporting purposes.
This is really helpful context! I had no idea the backdoor Roth was essentially an accident from overlapping legislation. It's fascinating how tax policy can have these unintended consequences that become widely accepted practices over time. One thing I'm curious about - you mentioned the IRS has published guidance on reporting these transactions. Do you happen to know which forms or publications specifically address this? I want to make sure I'm handling the reporting correctly when I file next year.
I went through something very similar with my single-member LLC last year. The key thing that saved me was immediately opening a properly designated IOLTA (Interest on Lawyers' Trust Account) style trust account specifically for client funds, even though I'm not a lawyer. Many banks will set up similar trust accounts for other professionals. The critical part is having ironclad documentation showing these are client funds held in trust, not your operating income. I had to provide retainer agreements, invoices showing the funds were for future services, and a clear paper trail separating client deposits from my earned income. Also, don't wait until you're more liquid to contact the IRS. Call them now and explain your situation - they're actually more willing to work with you if you're proactive rather than reactive. I was able to get a Currently Not Collectible status temporarily while I sorted out my finances, which stopped all collection activity. The IRS revenue officer I spoke with told me that being upfront about the client funds situation and showing proper documentation was much better than them discovering it during a levy. They appreciate transparency and it can actually work in your favor during negotiations.
This is really helpful advice! I'm curious though - when you opened that trust account, did you have to provide any special documentation to the bank to get it set up? And how long did it take for the IRS to approve your Currently Not Collectible status? I'm in a similar situation and trying to figure out the timeline for getting protection in place.
This is exactly the kind of situation where you need to act fast but also be very careful about how you handle it. As others have mentioned, the IRS absolutely can levy your single-member LLC account for personal tax debt since it's a disregarded entity. Here's what I'd recommend doing immediately: 1) **Document everything** - Get written proof that certain funds belong to clients. This means retainer agreements, invoices showing advance payments, anything that proves the money isn't yours. 2) **Contact the IRS proactively** - Don't wait for them to levy. Call and explain you have client funds mixed in the account that need protection. They're more likely to work with you if you're upfront. 3) **Set up proper separation** - Open a designated trust account for client funds if you haven't already. But be careful about the timing - moving money after receiving collection notices can look suspicious. The $78k debt is substantial, but the IRS has options like installment agreements and Currently Not Collectible status if you truly can't pay right now. The key is being proactive and transparent rather than trying to hide assets. Also, for future reference, consider electing S-Corp status for your LLC to create better separation between personal and business tax liabilities, though that won't help with your current situation. Don't panic, but don't delay either. The sooner you address this head-on, the more options you'll have.
This is really solid advice, especially about being proactive with the IRS. I'm dealing with a smaller debt ($23k) but similar situation with my single-member LLC having client retainers mixed in. Quick question for anyone who's been through this - when you call the IRS to explain about client funds, do you need to have all the documentation ready before making that call? Or can you explain the situation first and then provide documentation later? I'm worried about calling without having everything perfectly organized and making things worse. Also, @Gabriel Ruiz, when you mention S-Corp election for future protection - does that actually create a stronger barrier against personal tax levies on business accounts? I thought the IRS could still pierce through that for collection purposes.
This is really helpful information! I'm in a similar situation with my first-year S-Corp that had a $6,200 loss. I was completely confused about whether to even bother with Schedule M-2, but reading through these responses makes it clear that I need to track the AAA properly from day one. One quick follow-up question - when you have that negative AAA balance carrying forward, does it affect the shareholders' basis calculations at all? Or are those tracked completely separately? I want to make sure I'm not missing any other pieces of this puzzle before I file. Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences - this community is so much more helpful than trying to decipher the IRS instructions on my own!
Great question about basis vs AAA! These are actually tracked separately and serve different purposes. The AAA is a corporate-level account that tracks the S-Corp's undistributed earnings and losses, while shareholder basis is tracked at the individual shareholder level. Your negative AAA balance doesn't directly affect the shareholders' stock basis calculations. Shareholders track their own basis separately based on their initial investment, additional contributions, their share of income/losses, and distributions received. However, both are important for different reasons - basis determines how much loss a shareholder can deduct on their personal return, while AAA determines the tax treatment of future corporate distributions. So you'll want to make sure you're tracking both correctly!
As someone who's been preparing S-Corp returns for over 15 years, I want to emphasize that your approach is absolutely correct, Astrid! You should definitely maintain the AAA account from the very beginning, even with losses. A few additional points that might help you and others in similar situations: 1. The negative AAA balance of -$4,700 will indeed carry forward to next year's beginning balance. This is crucial for determining the tax character of future distributions. 2. When you do have profits in future years, the AAA will be restored dollar-for-dollar before any distributions are treated as tax-free return of capital to shareholders. 3. Keep detailed records of your AAA calculations each year. The IRS can ask for this information going back several years, especially if there are questions about distribution treatment. 4. Remember that the AAA is adjusted for income and deductions, but NOT for tax-exempt income or non-deductible expenses (those go to the Other Adjustments Account if applicable). Never leave Schedule M-2 blank - it's a required schedule for S-Corps and proper AAA tracking is essential for compliance and future planning. You're doing the right thing by getting this straight from year one!
This is exactly the kind of detailed guidance I was hoping to find! As someone new to S-Corp filings, it's reassuring to hear from an experienced preparer that I'm on the right track with maintaining the AAA from day one. Your point about keeping detailed records is especially helpful - I'll make sure to document all my AAA calculations clearly. The distinction between what goes to AAA versus Other Adjustments Account is something I hadn't fully considered, so I appreciate you pointing that out. One follow-up question: when you mention that AAA is restored "dollar-for-dollar" before distributions are treated as tax-free return of capital, does that mean if I have a $25,000 profit next year, the first $4,700 essentially goes to bringing the AAA balance back to zero, and then the remaining $20,300 would be available for tax-free distributions up to shareholders' basis? Thanks for taking the time to share your expertise - it really helps us newcomers navigate these complex requirements!
Anyone else find it weird that even though we attach these documents electronically, the IRS still asks for faxes or mail? It's like their systems don't talk to each other at all! I ended up having to fax AND mail my sister's Form 1310 stuff last year. Such a headache.
Their systems literally don't talk to each other. I worked as a tax preparer for years and the IRS has multiple separate computer systems that often don't share information between departments. The e-file system is separate from the system that processes paper documents which is separate from their correspondence system.
I went through this exact same situation with my father's estate return two years ago. The IRS kept requesting Form 1310 even though I had already submitted it electronically. After three rounds of back-and-forth, I learned that the issue was actually with how the electronic filing system handles certified documents. Here's what worked for me: I called the IRS number on the letter and asked them to specify exactly what format they needed the court certificate in. Turns out they needed the actual raised seal to be visible, which obviously doesn't transmit well electronically. I ended up having to get a new certified copy from the probate court with clearer certification language and sent it via certified mail with a cover letter referencing the notice number. The whole process took about 10 weeks from start to finish, but once I sent the properly certified documents, they processed the refund without any further issues. Don't give up - it's just a matter of getting them the documentation in the exact format their system requires.
This is really helpful - I never would have thought about the raised seal issue! That makes total sense why electronic filing wouldn't work for these certified documents. Did you have to pay extra to get a new certified copy from the probate court, or were they able to provide it at no charge since it was for the same case?
Michael Green
Just want to add one more consideration that might be relevant for your situation - timing of when you actually start paying interest matters for tax reporting. If you're borrowing the money next month but won't start making interest payments until later in the year, your uncle will only need to report the interest he actually receives during the 2025 tax year. So if you borrow in May but don't start paying interest until August, he'd only report 5 months of interest income on his 2025 return. Also, since you mentioned this is for a car down payment, just be aware that unlike mortgage interest, the interest you pay on this personal loan won't be tax-deductible for you (even though your uncle still has to report it as income). Personal loan interest generally isn't deductible unless it's used for business or investment purposes. The written agreement others mentioned is really crucial here - I'd suggest including the specific purpose of the loan (car purchase) and maybe even the VIN once you buy the car. This helps establish it as a legitimate loan rather than a gift if anyone ever questions it later.
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Evelyn Kim
β’This is really smart advice about the timing aspect! I hadn't thought about how the actual payment schedule affects when the interest income needs to be reported. That could definitely impact both parties' tax situations for 2025. The point about personal loan interest not being deductible is also crucial - I was wondering about that since I've heard mortgage interest can be deducted. Good to know that car loan interest (even from family) doesn't qualify for any deductions on my end. Including the VIN in the loan agreement is a brilliant suggestion! That really helps establish the legitimate business purpose and creates a clear paper trail connecting the loan to the actual car purchase. I'm definitely going to suggest we add those details to our documentation. Thanks for the practical tips!
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Layla Mendes
One additional point to consider that hasn't been mentioned much - if your family loan extends into multiple tax years, both you and your uncle need to be consistent about how you handle the reporting each year. I had a situation where my aunt loaned me money for graduate school over a 4-year repayment period, and we had to make sure she reported the interest income every year she received it, even when the amounts varied based on my payment schedule. Also, keep copies of all your payment records (bank transfers, checks, etc.) and the original loan agreement together in one file. If either of you ever gets audited, having that complete documentation package makes the process much smoother. The IRS likes to see that family loans are treated with the same formality as commercial loans. One last tip - consider setting up automatic payments if possible. It creates a consistent paper trail and ensures you don't accidentally miss payments, which could complicate the loan's legitimacy if questioned later. Good luck with your car purchase!
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James Martinez
β’This is excellent advice about maintaining consistency across multiple tax years! The point about keeping all documentation together is so important - I learned this the hard way when I had to scramble to find scattered payment records during a different tax situation. Your suggestion about automatic payments is really smart too. Not only does it create that consistent paper trail you mentioned, but it also helps establish the "arm's length" nature of the transaction that the IRS looks for in legitimate family loans. When payments are regular and documented just like they would be with a bank, it really strengthens the case that this is a real loan and not a disguised gift. I'm curious - did you and your aunt end up using any specific language in your loan agreement about what happens if payments are missed or late? I'm wondering if having those terms spelled out (even if you never need to use them) helps further establish the legitimate business nature of the arrangement.
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