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Has anyone compared what happens with futures and section 1256 contracts under regular vs MTM? I trade a lot of ES and NQ futures and right now I'm getting that sweet 60/40 split between long-term and short-term rates. Wondering if MTM would hurt or help in my case?
I do mostly futures trading and ran the numbers both ways. If you're primarily trading futures and already getting the 60/40 treatment, MTM actually worked out worse for me. Under regular rules, 60% of my gains were taxed at the lower long-term rate. With MTM, 100% would be ordinary income. But it really depends on your overall trading pattern and if you have other non-futures trading with lots of wash sales or short-term trades. For pure futures traders, the section 1256 treatment is often better than MTM.
Great thread! As someone who made the MTM election two years ago, I wanted to add a few practical considerations that might help with your decision: One thing to consider is the timing of when you actually start generating significant trading income under MTM. If you're planning to scale up your trading activity significantly in 2025, the ordinary income treatment might actually work in your favor if you're able to deduct business expenses that you couldn't before (like a home office, equipment, education, etc.). Also, regarding your multiple brokerage accounts - while the MTM election does apply to all securities under your SSN, I've found it helpful to designate one account specifically for "business trading" and another for "personal investments" even before setting up any entities. This makes the record-keeping much cleaner if you do decide to go the LLC route later. One more tip: if you do sell your NVDA position before year-end to lock in those long-term gains, be mindful of the wash sale rules if you plan to repurchase it within 30 days. Even though MTM eliminates wash sales going forward, the rules still apply to your 2024 transactions under regular tax treatment. The complexity definitely increases, but the benefits can be substantial if you're doing high-volume trading. Just make sure you have a solid bookkeeping system in place!
This is really helpful perspective from someone who's actually been through the MTM process! Quick question about the business expense deductions - what kind of expenses have you found most valuable to deduct that you couldn't before? I'm trying to figure out if the trade-off from long-term capital gains rates to ordinary income rates might be worth it just for the additional deductions alone. Also, your point about designating accounts before setting up entities is smart. I'm assuming you mean keeping detailed records showing the different purposes/strategies for each account even while they're all still under your personal SSN? That would definitely make the transition cleaner if I decide to go the LLC route later. One more thing - when you mention scaling up trading activity, are you referring to increasing volume/frequency or also expanding into different types of securities? I'm wondering if MTM becomes more beneficial at certain trading volume thresholds.
Has your son considered taking the mother back to court to update the custody agreement? If the actual situation doesn't match the legal documents, that's a problem for tax purposes. The IRS generally follows the custody agreement. If he can get the agreement modified to reflect reality (that the child lives with him/you most of the time), it would be much easier to legitimately claim the child on taxes going forward. Also, make sure to look into the Child Tax Credit and the Credit for Other Dependents. Depending on your income and situation, you might qualify for one of these if you're able to claim your granddaughter.
This is the most sensible advice. Tax issues aside, the custody agreement should reflect the actual living situation. If mom only has occasional visits, why does she have primary custody on paper? That needs to be addressed first.
I went through something very similar with my grandson a few years ago. The situation you're describing - where you're providing all the care but someone else has legal custody - is unfortunately common. Here's what I learned: The IRS uses what's called the "tie-breaker rules" when multiple people could potentially claim the same child. Generally, the parent with whom the child lived for the greater number of nights during the year gets to claim them. But when parents aren't living together, the custodial parent (according to the divorce decree or separation agreement) typically has the right to claim the child. However, there's an important exception: if you can prove that your granddaughter lived with you for more than half the year (183+ nights) and you provided more than half of her support, you might be able to claim her as a "qualifying relative" rather than a "qualifying child." My advice: Start documenting everything NOW for next year's taxes. Keep a detailed calendar of where she sleeps each night, save every receipt for her expenses, and get letters from her school, doctor, etc. showing your address as her primary residence. You might also want to consult with a tax professional who specializes in family situations like this - the rules can be tricky but there are often ways to make it work legally.
This is really helpful! I'm curious about the "qualifying relative" vs "qualifying child" distinction you mentioned. How exactly does that work? I thought grandchildren could only be claimed as qualifying children, not qualifying relatives. Also, would the grandmother need to meet any income requirements for the granddaughter to qualify as a qualifying relative? The IRS rules seem to have so many exceptions and special cases!
You're absolutely right about the documentation being key here. I've been dealing with this exact issue in my construction business for years. The IRS doesn't actually require you to get W-9s from every single day laborer - that's a common misconception that causes a lot of unnecessary stress. Here's what I learned from my tax attorney: for occasional workers paid under $600 annually, you just need to maintain adequate records showing the expense was ordinary and necessary for your business. This means keeping a simple log with dates, amounts paid, work performed, and ideally some form of acknowledgment from the worker (even just a first name and signature on a receipt). For your ATM records, you can definitely use those as supporting documentation. Create a log that matches your withdrawal dates to specific jobs, noting how many workers you hired, what work they did, and how much you paid each person. Photos of the work being done can also help establish the business purpose. The $600 threshold is per individual worker per year, not total payments to all workers. Since you're using different people each time, you're likely not hitting that threshold with any single worker. Just make sure you're consistent with your documentation going forward - the IRS values consistency and good faith effort to maintain proper records.
This is really helpful clarification! I think I've been overthinking this whole thing. So if I understand correctly, as long as I'm consistent about documenting the basics (date, amount, work done, worker acknowledgment) and I'm not paying any individual worker more than $600 in a year, I should be okay to deduct these as legitimate business expenses? I like the idea of matching my ATM withdrawals to specific jobs in a log. That seems like a practical way to create a paper trail for past expenses. Going forward, I'll definitely start having workers sign simple receipts and maybe take photos of the work sites. One more question - do you think it's worth setting up a separate business bank account just for these cash withdrawals? Would that make the documentation cleaner for tax purposes?
Yes, you've got it exactly right! The key is consistency and showing good faith effort to document legitimate business expenses. A separate business account for cash withdrawals is actually a brilliant idea - it creates a much cleaner paper trail and makes it obvious that these withdrawals were for business purposes rather than personal use. I'd also suggest keeping a small notebook or using a phone app to log the details right when you pay the workers, rather than trying to reconstruct everything later. The closer your documentation is to the actual transaction, the stronger it looks if you ever get audited. One tip from my experience - if you're at the same pickup location regularly (like that hardware store parking lot), you might start recognizing some of the same workers. If you end up using someone multiple times throughout the year, just keep a running tally of what you've paid them so you know if you're approaching that $600 threshold where you'd need their tax info.
I've been running a small electrical contracting business for about 8 years and dealt with this exact same issue. The key thing to understand is that the IRS cares more about whether you can prove the expense was legitimate and business-related than having perfect W-9 documentation for every single person. Here's what worked for me: I created a simple "Daily Labor Log" that I keep in my work truck. For each job where I hire day laborers, I write down: date, job address, worker's first name, hours worked, rate paid, total amount, and what specific work they did. I also have them initial next to their entry - most people are fine with this since it's not asking for sensitive info. For your past expenses, definitely create that reconstruction log matching your ATM withdrawals to specific jobs. Include as much detail as you can remember - job locations, approximate dates, what work was needed, how many people you hired. This shows the IRS you're making a good faith effort to maintain proper records. The separate cash account idea mentioned above is genius - I wish I'd thought of that years ago. It would make everything so much cleaner come tax time. You're definitely on the right track with wanting to document these properly - these are legitimate business expenses that you absolutely should be able to deduct.
This is exactly the kind of practical advice I was looking for! I love the idea of keeping a "Daily Labor Log" in my truck - that makes it so much easier to document everything right when it happens instead of trying to remember details later. The part about having workers initial next to their entry is really smart too. It's not invasive like asking for SSNs, but it does create that acknowledgment you mentioned. I'm definitely going to start doing this. I'm curious - in your 8 years of doing this, have you ever been audited or had any issues with the IRS regarding these day labor expenses? I'm still a bit nervous about the whole thing even with better documentation, so it would be reassuring to hear from someone who's been doing this successfully for a while. Also, do you have any specific recommendations for what to write in the "work performed" section? Should I be general like "landscaping assistance" or more detailed like "helped load mulch and plant shrubs at residential property"?
This whole situation is why I just buy separate devices for business and personal use. Trying to calculate percentages and conversion values is way too complicated and can raise red flags with the IRS. Just spend the money on a dedicated business computer and save yourself the headache come tax time.
Great question! As someone who went through this exact scenario, I can confirm what others have said - you absolutely can deduct your laptop, but with some important caveats. The key is establishing the "depreciable basis" which is the lower of your original cost ($695) or the fair market value when you converted it to business use in April 2022. Since you mentioned similar models are selling for $650-675 now, you'd likely use around $650-675 as your basis from when you started the business. Then you multiply by your business use percentage (25-30%), so you're looking at deducting roughly $163-203. You can either depreciate this over 5 years using MACRS, or potentially take it all in year one using Section 179 (though you're still limited to the business percentage). One crucial thing - keep detailed records of your business vs personal usage. The IRS can ask for documentation if audited, so having a log or some way to substantiate that 25-30% figure is important. Also remember that if your business use percentage changes significantly in future years, it could affect your deductions. Form 4562 is what you'll need for the depreciation, and definitely consider consulting a tax professional if you're unsure about any of the calculations!
Dylan Cooper
Has anyone used tax software to handle refinance points? I tried doing this in TurboTax last year and found it super confusing. It asked if I paid points but didn't clearly separate refinance vs purchase points.
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Sofia Morales
β’I use H&R Block software and it actually handles this pretty well. There's a specific section for mortgage interest where it asks if the points were for a purchase or refinance. If you select refinance, it then calculates the annual deductible amount based on your loan term. One tip - save your closing disclosure! The software will ask for the exact amount of points paid and the length of your new loan to calculate the yearly deduction correctly.
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Dylan Cooper
β’Thanks for the recommendation! I might switch from TurboTax this year. Was starting to think I needed to hire an accountant just for this one issue.
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Keisha Taylor
I went through this exact same frustration when I refinanced two years ago! The timing really stings because you're paying thousands upfront but can only deduct a tiny portion each year. One thing that helped me feel better about it: even though you have to spread the deduction over 30 years, you're still getting the same total tax benefit - it's just delayed. And if you ever pay off the loan early or refinance again, you get to deduct all the remaining unamortized points in that year. Also, make sure you're tracking this properly each year. I created a simple spreadsheet showing my annual deduction amount ($4,300 Γ· 30 years = about $143/year in your case) so I don't forget to claim it. It's easy to overlook such a small annual amount, but over time it adds up. The IRS logic is frustrating but at least the benefit isn't completely lost!
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Anita George
β’Thanks for mentioning the spreadsheet idea! I'm definitely going to set that up because you're right - $143 per year is easy to forget but over 30 years that's real money. Quick question though - when you say "pay off the loan early" triggers the remaining deduction, does that include if I sell the house? Or only if I actually pay off the mortgage while keeping the house? I'm not planning to move anytime soon but want to understand all the scenarios. Also appreciate the perspective about getting the same total benefit just delayed. Still annoying but helps me think about it differently!
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